Entrepreneurs love promises. Results come from patterns. Austin and Marc unpack why “actions speak louder than words” is more than homespun wisdom—it’s a working rule for choosing partners, clients, and collaborators without becoming cynical. Expect candid stories (including an investor publicly dressing down his assistant), red flags to watch for, and a dead-simple rubric:

Lead with trust. Watch what people do. Match their access with their actions.

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Key Points

• Start people at zero, not negative-100. Assume positive intent, then trust but verify.
• Look for “tells”: delayed follow-ups, ghosted meetings, partial replies to multi-question emails—micro-signals of reliability (or not).
• Match access to actions: expand access when people keep promises; restrict it when they don’t. No drama required.
• Finish with integrity: if you’re in a misfit engagement, complete the contracted work cleanly or use a “cancel without cause” clause—then exit.
• Reset boundaries mid-project (response windows, meeting cadence, content handoffs) to “right the ship.”
• Automate your judgment with rules (e.g., no tight turnarounds for brand-new clients; no work without deposit). Stick to them.
• Reliability beats charisma: premium pricing and long-term trust ride on doing what you said, when you said.
• Self-audit matters: don’t become the person others can’t count on—communicate early, renegotiate timelines, and keep small promises.

Notable Quotes

“Start everyone at zero—then trust, but verify.”

“If they react badly to your rule, they just showed you who they are.”

“People will tolerate a lot—except unreliability.”

Resources Mentioned

• Learn more about Marc Hyde
• Check out Marc's other website, Christian School Websites
• If you’re an advanced freelancer ready to trade burnout for momentum, join Freelance Cake Community to make better decisions, faster.
• Get 1:1 Strategy Session with Austin

Watch the interview

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Transcript

00:00

He proceeds to dress her down in a way that I found embarrassing. Wait, wait, in front of you guys? In front of us. How do you kind of recognize where, okay, is this person having a bad day or  are they just a wolf in sheep's clothing?  I know, oh, he's probably not gonna be a reliable partner or collaborator. Too bad, doesn't mean I have to cut you out of my life. Just means I'm not going to welcome you into my life with open arms.  

00:32

We get a little frustrated. Like we all have those couple clients where it's like you say their name. It's like, you know, yeah, like, yeah, that's just what they do. Like, what should we do if we find ourselves in those spots?

00:46

Hey there. Welcome to the Freelance Cake podcast. I'm your host, Austin L. Church, founder of the Freelance Cake community. The goal of this show is to help full time committed freelancers get better leverage. As the sworn enemy of busyness and burnout, I have no desire whatsoever to see you work harder. So I reveal the specific beliefs, principles, and practices you can use right away to make the freelance game more profitable and satisfying. So chill out, listen in, because the best is yet to come.

01:25

Hey everybody, I have somewhat unusual episode for you all today because I'm joined by my friend and freelance cake community member Marc Hyde. Marc read this article that I wrote essay piece of writing. He read something I wrote. He reached out. He said, I think this would make a great podcast episode. And I said, let's do it. But before we actually dive into that... Marc tell everybody who you are  what you're currently focused on with your freelance business slash lean agency.

02:07

Yeah definitely so yeah so so as awesome you already said my name is Marc i'm from the south bend indiana area so if you can see the full screen behind me  big love for university of nother dame being right here but i marry a girl from from your neck of the woods man so we have a little east tennessee love in us too but. Yes, so I own a website design development company called Marc Hyde Creative. I've been going full time in that since COVID forced me to do it back in back in 2020, where primarily the main gig is we just help people get found online and look really good when they get found. And so we work with schools and churches and businesses and a lot of content creators, basically people who have that problem of I want to get found online or I do get found online and I look like crap when I do. So let's fix it.

02:54

Based on a couple of the audiences you mentioned, churches, nonprofits, private schools, a lot of those  clients, if they don't look good online, it really does cost them the sale or like with a school that like costs them enrollment potentially tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars, I'm guessing because one student means one family and one family might mean many years of tuition.

03:25

That's it, man. And so so I did create a separate standalone. I deviate it. Fun fact. So we're moving in the big boy direction with with the business.  Well, Christian School Websites dot com. And I put an ROI calculator on that thing to say, here's what your investment will be. Here's how much tuition you cost. Here's the lifetime value of that student. Just to show this is an investment. It's not a cost.

03:51

OK, so remind me. We'll make sure that goes in the show notes. But the main reason we're here to talk today is about an idea that I find fascinating, one that has been very important. But let me pass the can you pass the steering wheel? I don't think you could pass the baton. I know you're not steering wheel marks. You have my own. You're the plathering, please.

04:18

Oh, gosh. But yeah, so here's kind of the idea and where we want to start. So if you have not read Austin's article, long idea number three. So there's, two other ones, believe in people's actions. It's fantastic. It was one of those articles where I read through it and it did a really good job with balancing  grace in terms of wanting to believe what's best about everybody, but also  living in the reality of how people actually behave to back up what they say or what they claim or things like that. And I honestly, when I read through it, the first time I read through, I'm like, oh, there's something here and there's something else missing in this article that I think we can uncover in an interview style format like this. So yeah, so I'm excited to jump into it. But for somebody who has not yet read this article first, shame on you. But second, what was the big idea that you were trying to communicate with this belief in people's actions?

05:11

Yeah. So the series Long Ideas is my passing along of timeless, long lasting ideas that are of particular importance or value for entrepreneurs. So people in business, a lot of us,  we attribute our ultimate success or failure or middling results  in business to  factors like competition or the market, market forces, you know,  what's are those market forces doing in terms of pricing? All of those factors and variables matter. But  so do  our ideas, which ideas are fundamental, which principles we use to guide our decision making  this particular one, believing people's actions. I wrote about it because, first of all, it fits the bill. It's a long idea. It's long lasting. It has always been true and will always be true. But  the main reason, maybe the bigger reason that I chose to write about it at length was  because I'm a naturally trusting person  and  because I want to believe the best  in people and about people,  I had this self-inflicted blindness.  

06:34

And so the idea  is that  even if you prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt, assume positive intent, you need to believe people's actions, especially when their actions contradict their words. So we've all met people who are those  smooth talking types. They can get you to believe anything because they are charismatic or charming or persuasive. And maybe you even want to believe them because what they're promising or what they're talking about sounds really good, right? And some of those people can actually deliver. So  the point is not to go around being skeptical of everyone and what any charismatic person has to say. No, the point is  when a person's  actions contradict their words, believe their actions, believe what they do.

07:40

And I'll give you a very small example. That's what I gonna ask for. like, what's an example of this? Yeah. So back during my startup days, 2013 to 2017, we were courting this investor. We wanted this person to give us capital, meaning stroke a check, give us money that we could use to grow the company. More importantly, this person had a lot of relationships in the music industry. Our startup, you know, focus was ticketing, touring and communication software for bands.  And some investors are more valuable than others because they can give you money and they can make introductions. They can open doors. They can get you that conversation with someone who could say, yeah, we'll, we'll make sure all 500 of these bands start using your software.

08:36

So we were very interested in this particular investor because we were hoping that he could open those doors for us. We had gone to Nashville, sort of capital of the music industry in the US or at least country music. Right. A lot of music industry folks in Nashville. I country music, by the way. My wife has forced that upon me. So we're getting there. I've gone the opposite direction. I grew up in Nashville and don't much care for country music, but that's that's precisely I can break. Yeah, I can break that down for you later.

09:09

But anyway, we drive from Knoxville where I still live  over to Nashville, have a meeting  and you know, I guess it's going well. I think it's going well. And then  this investor's  executive assistant walks up  and as they do, like I didn't mind the interruption  and  he proceeds  to dress her down in a way that I found embarrassing.

09:38

Wait, wait, in front of you guys?

09:40

In front of us. And  I thought, well, first of all, I'm  no great business savant, but I'm pretty sure that could have waited until later. Second of all, there are ways to correct another person  without humiliating the other person. And it just could have waited like it just could have waited till later. And I just thought like, just felt the heat rising up my face. And I'm like looking at my business partner and I'm looking at the assistant and she just look on her face because she's looking at us and she is humiliated.

10:28

And  just  is this  perfect picture of  these words that we may get to in a moment from Maya Angelou, you know, by way of Oprah Winfrey, when people show you who they are, believe them the first time. The fact is, I don't want to do business with someone who thinks it's okay to treat other people.

10:58

Who's that to say they're not going do that to you? So  executive assistant leaves. And then no joke, he pretends like nothing has happened. Like he picks up like mid sentence.  There's no acknowledgement that,  yeah, I'm going to have to apologize  for her to her later. I just overreacted or I shouldn't have said what I said. Or there was none of nothing like that.

11:27

It was all  okay yeah so we were saying that and I realized oh this is normal for him treating  other people, presumably subordinates this way in front of other people like when there's an audience this is normal so no matter what he might have  said to us or told us about his values or his beliefs or how he likes to do business or what it might look like for us to work together. What became clear to me in that moment was  this is what we would be getting. Like, do I believe  his actions right now? Because  this is the naked truth. No matter what I might like to believe based on how I thought he might be a strategic contact for our company.

12:28

And so I'm guessing that you did not  make a partnership.

12:32

That relationship never went anywhere.  And  in  many ways, my startup years were like a crucible where a lot of these insights and lessons came into focus. I had so many experiences  with people outside of my own little bubble in Knoxville and even the people I'd grown up knowing in Nashville, they were allkind of,  you know, for the most part, consistent in their ethics, their values,  their treatment of other people. It took actually traveling other places,  pitching investors, meeting people at conferences before I realized not everyone is trustworthy. Surprise.

13:20

So I think that sets up this concept of believing people's actions. They'll tell you one thing. Notice when what they do  goes against what they said before.

13:33

Yeah. And I want to touch on this. So I'm making notes over down here, too, of things that come back to and one is how to develop that skill. But before we get into that, I guess, you know, a couple of thoughts that come to my mind is twofold. Number one is, you know, I feel like I was raised very much like you, where it's like  my mom was one where she always said, never drink the Kool-Aid. But at the same time, you know, we're  expected to believe the best of everybody. Like that's just the way I was raised. And so on the one side, I hear that and I'm like, OK, so if we're supposed to live in grace and truth and and, we're supposed to, you know, show people forgiveness and show mercy and show grace because, you know, we could just catch someone on their bad day, you know,  versus this is their  I'll call it tendency. So we have, you know, people just are  they're they're in a pit, they're in a valley, they're mentally struggling with whatever because everyone brings their crap from normal life into their work life. And then that could just be a bad moment. How do you kind of recognize where, OK, is this person is this person having a bad day or are they just a wolf in sheep's clothing?

14:38

So we all have bad days. We all make mistakes. Unfortunately, most of those mistakes we have to make on other people. We tend to make them especially on the people closest to us. So. uh you know, the perfect performance, perfect consistency, perfect integrity, that was never on the table. What this idea has meant for me in practical terms is starting everybody at zero. I think skepticism and suspicion start everyone at negative 100. So you have to prove to me that you are trustworthy, you have to prove to me that you should be let into my life. And that self-protective approach seems  wise, it seems strategic until you experience, as I did, the heaviness of that armor. Like  skepticism and suspicion and honestly expecting the worst out of people, it becomes a pretty heavy burden to carry after a while.

15:51

By contrast, starting people  at zero means,  hey, I assume that you're trustworthy until you show yourself to be untrustworthy. So it's more like  what Reagan talked about when he was going through the whole uh season of disarmament.nuclear disarmament with the Soviet Union, it's trust,  but verify. So I can start people at zero and that's that grace and truth. Like why wouldn't I just believe you take what you say at face value? That's the easiest thing. But I don't want to be duped. I don't want to be an easy target. I don't want anyone to take advantage of my naivete. And so what do I do? I pay close attention  and I verify.

16:50

So  if you and  I meet at a conference and you tell me, man, I love what you're doing with the freelance cake community. I'm pretty sure I could double the size of your community in six months. Would you be interested in having a conversation about that? And like, let's say we've actually spent a little bit of time together. I had fun getting to know you. I'm like, yeah, let's, let's keep that conversation going. Right. But it's because you've already had, but you're, know, you might be plus one, plus two by that point. Cause you've already had that conversation. Right. So you come in making a pretty splashy promise and exciting promise. So what do I do? Well, in practical terms  or let's get down to a little bit of technique.

17:41

I might say something like, Hey, write down my email address, email me, CC my assistant, and let's get a time in the calendar to talk about this in more detail. And then most people will say something like, that sounds great,  I'll email you tomorrow. So tomorrow comes and goes, and then another couple of days,  and maybe in a week, I hear from you  and you say, hey, let's get that meeting in the calendar. What you have shown me through your actions is  either you never intended to email me the next day or you forgot. In either case, you  are scoring, let's say a C, C minus in terms of unreliability. I trusted you. Why wouldn't I trust you? You've  given me no reason to distrust you. But when I look at next steps and these sort of small bids in terms of additional trust, like again, I'm letting you into my calendar. I'm agreeing to deepen a relationship with you, but I'm not going to like form any kind of compensation agreement with you. Let's take the very next step. How did you handle the very next step? Did you actually do what you said you were going to do?

19:23

And so I have found that  if you pay close attention, if you trust, but verify. There are so many tells like in poker terms, people send all these signals.  Hey, I'm disorganized  or hey, I'm forgetful. And none of these are like  mortal sins, right? Like all of this stuff is forgivable, but it just sort of chips away at my belief that this person is actually of the caliber that they can help me double the size of my community because if they  don't have a system in place  for  scheduling a follow-up call, then is it probable that they'll have a system in place for delivering on this big splashy promise that they made? And again, I'd love for them to.

20:22

So I really like this believing people's actions idea because it lets me be sort of as innocent as a dove. It lets me be a person who defaults to trusting others. But then  all I have to do is pay attention. So I don't have to like protect myself from the very first moment. I just pay attention and I'm like, okay, I led with trust. Now I'm verifying how deserving of trust is this person. And then from there, I may find myself expanding access to my resources,  to my relationships, to my knowledge, to my expertise, to  my um generosity, or I may find myself limiting access because, and again, those things will just, that access will just grow or shrink in proportion with this person's sort of enacted or established trustworthiness. And  it's not complicated. Right?

21:41

Like  if you keep your word again and again and again, okay, great. Then our relationship deepens and we look for more ways to collaborate. If you only do what you say 50 % of the time, I know, oh, he's probably not going to be a reliable partner or collaborator. Too bad. Doesn't mean I have to cut you out of my life. Just means I'm not going to, um, welcome you into my life with open arms.

22:14

And I like how you said that with access to you, know, you're not cutting them out. You're not leaving them out in the cold, but you're not going to part of the inner inner inner sanctum of Austin church's life. And You know, to bring this into the freelancer world a little bit, because, you know, we're all advanced freelancers here, or hopeful, hopeful advanced freelancers. You know, I think we can all share a story of, you know, when something looked really good, it felt good, and then crap hit the fan and it just exploded. And I'm thinking of a couple of clients of my own where, you know, as I'm listening to you talk, I'm like, you know what? They've looked like a duck. They've quacked like a duck. They walk like a duck. They're probably a duck. It's duck. Now, of course, there's also like, yes, you know, if it sounds like a horse, it could still be a zebra. But, you know, nine times out of 10 or 99 times out of 100, it's going to be the fact of if this person has a tendency toward doing this, they're just going to keep doing it.

23:13

The show you those signs and signals, those those warning signs and red flags are evident from the beginning and sorry to interrupt, but no, you're good. How many times have you gotten into that unfortunate situation with a client or someone else  and  realized I saw this coming? And so the question becomes, why did we go against our better judgment? Anyway, what were you going to say?

23:47

No, no. Well, I'll respond that for a second too. And I think, you know, we all get to a place in our freelancer careers where, you know, the early days you're desperate for a paycheck. So you will take anything that comes through that door. And then as you solidify your services and solidify your authority and your positioning, you're able to say yes or no and be OK with that. Like I had one person who I heard what they had to say. I think I could have helped them with their website, but I didn't want to because they flaked on two meetings before. And I'm like, if you flaked on me twice, I don't want to build your stuff because then I will never get this project done. Of course, you know, things do happen. Like I'm working with a school where the pastor lead pastor passed away. Well, that changes everything. Like not from a standpoint of getting content, but like their entire world went from like, oh yeah, we're going this direction to our leaders gone. We're just trying to figure out and pick up the pieces. So there's time to show grace, but then, but that's not their MO, that's not their standard. That's a one-off situation. Outlier. Yeah, outlier. But with us as freelancers, what happens if we find ourselves in bed with somebody like that, where we thought it was gonna be a good fit, it's proven to not be, we just keep getting, I don't even wanna say getting screwed over, but we all have that client that if we say their name or think about it, we get a little frustrated. We all have those couple clients where it's like, you say their name, It's like, you know,  yeah, like, yeah, that's that's just what they do. Like, what should we do if we find ourselves in those spots?

25:15

So  the first  piece of advice I give is finish the project in a way that you will be proud of later. Handle yourself in a way that you will be proud of. So if you have  a service agreement and you really ought to have a service agreement, go back and look at it, and figure out how far along are we in this project  and  finish the project. Like do  what you were contractually obligated to do. Now, if you haven't spent all the money and you would like to just cancel the project,  my contracts, service agreements have a cancel without cause clause.

26:07

And so I can go to a client if I want to and say, Hey, things have changed on my end. I would normally recommend against think, you know, saying, I think you're a monster  and I regret the day I met you. You're a  You're a jerk.  Um,  but if you can  cancel them and give them a partial or full refund, do that. Um, if you can't do that because you've already spent the money or, you know, there are just other circumstances. Finish the project. Finish the project in a way that you will be proud of. You still have to look yourself in the mirror at the end of the day. um And then  you can take inventory of the things about the relationship that you find most irritating, most uh disrespectful, most unfair.

27:01

There's no reason that you can't reestablish boundaries mid project. Like a lot of our irritation comes back to uh disrespectful, unfair, self-centered people who are mistreating us because we come to find out that we're not reading from the same life playbook. Like, hey, you know, my parents told me if you  don't have anything nice to say, then don't didn't get that memo, right? So there's no reason you can't reestablish boundaries after you've taken inventory and said,  I'm no well, no longer willing to accept X, Y, and Z. Then you just send an email or you get on a call and you say, Hey, I think we need to write the ship. I'll respond to emails between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. Monday through Friday, but I'm just will not be available on the weekends or after hour. Like you get what I'm saying. I bring that up because some of the more irritating things clients do, they're fairly predictable. Right.

28:17

So. Yeah, if you can write the ship mid project, do. If the very best that can happen is the punishment continues, so to speak, until the project is over. I would still say do your very best to finish the project in a way that you're proud of as quickly as possible. Like prioritize the irritating project above all of your other projects so that you can finish it and get it out of your life. the hardest thing, man. Because it's like the one you don't want to touch. last thing you want to do is I had this one client, it was brand development. And we would meet to,  that a decision would be made or so that we could discuss some key part of the project to move it forward or whatever.  need to pull content out of you, whatever, right? I need feedback or decisions or questions answered.  And I don't know why this person did this, but we would get on these calls.

29:28

Like he would  one up me and I'm like, I'm here to serve you. Like I don't. you can sketch of like my dad went to the moon. Like, mean, it was like it was that kind of stuff, right? Where I'm like, I don't I don't I don't care about my own track record. I'm just trying to. So he would talk in circles. He would interrupt me. The whole reason for the call, no joke, would be let's identify the brand's key differentiators. And he would just be telling war stories to pump up his ego, and I'd be like it would be this point, it would be framing. It would be like, and you were probably still in high school when this happened. He would feel the need to like tack that on the end of the story, like pointing out my age, pointing out what he considered my inexperience compared to him. A little later in the project, I realized for whatever reason, I made him insecure. And that's why he felt the need to power up on me. And. I just hounded him until I got what I needed to finish the project. And then he still, and I finally, was like pulling teeth, got him to say, yes, it's all approved in writing, like over email. And I was like, peace.

30:59

And here's the thing. This is the thing that was like mystifying to me. He loved me. He was so complimentary after we finished. And I'm like, I think you're the single most frustrating person I've ever worked with. And I have worked with like textbook narcissists and people I would consider like generally consider like a very bad person, not just, you know, difficult to work with, but like  actively working to harm other people. And this was like being smothered in a like, bathtub full of lard. Like, well, that's what it was for you. Yeah, you're welcome.

31:42

But anyway, um so we have those situations and. You have to get out of it with your integrity intact, staying in integrity with yourself  and  as much as you just want to burn it down and unload every brilliant Barb  you have in your mind, I would say that's not wise. Just finish the project and then kick the dust off your heels and move on to the next one and take the qualitative gain in terms of you enjoy your life more when that client project is over.

32:22

Yeah. And so I'm assuming then based off of these experiences, you've set different boundaries in place in your life and how different things work. Like, shoot, even with the mortgage company we worked with for buying this house. Anytime you sent them an email after five  instant notification of  we will respond back to your normal business. I was like, that's kind of cool. I might need to do that for myself. But have you set up certain boundaries and expectations on clients moving forward that you're very proud of that maybe we need to take inventory of too?

32:49

Yes. So I call them bad business pickup lines.

32:54

You need a whole post on this for LinkedIn. Bad business. I'm writing these down.

33:00

So a lot of bad fit clients have the same behavioral tendencies. Like it's pattern recognition. You already mentioned one, they show up late to meetings. Or they ghost you on meetings. Or they reply to emails, you've asked three questions and they answer one. Like are they suddenly gonna get more meticulous? Or detail oriented in their communication from that day forward? No. So,  ideally you identify these things before  either of you signs a service agreement. You have to know  what the telltale signs are. You have to keep a catalog of them and you have to decide what you're going to do when you see them.

33:56

One of mine is clients who come to be in a rush  and want a really tight turnaround on a project. And it's a new client, not an existing client where I already know the brand. We already have that relationship. Brand new client have never worked with them. They have a project. It is so urgent. Can you do this this week? And I'm like, wait, it's Tuesday at 3:45 PM and you want it done by Friday morning.

34:32

So know what the telltale signs are and then create rules. And that sounds really rigid and strict, but I'm telling you, persuasive, charming people who are accustomed to getting what they want, in his book, Give and Take, Adam Grant calls them takers. Like some people are charismatic and charming and are super generous and lovely.

35:00

Takers are the opposite. They've figured out how to act like givers  so that you let your guard down and then they can just kind of suck you dry like business vampires. Right. So  know what the telltale signs are and then turn those into rules and then don't violate your own rules because there will always be the next person who comes around manages to be disarming and then says something like, yeah, by the way, can we get it by Friday?

35:39

And you need to stick to your guns.  Well, because then, you know, now you're becoming a person who's not even, you know, your actions are backing up your words.  Because you said, hey, I'm not going to do that anymore. I'm not going to agree to tight turnarounds with brand new clients. And here's when things are most telling. You have a rule. Hey, sorry, I don't. I don't work. I don't get started on projects until I receive the deposit. That's just a rule of mine.

36:15

If that person gets so mad at you... and they overreact when they could have just paid the deposit with a credit card that day. Can you reasonably expect things to get better from there? So your rules,  yes, they protect you, but more importantly, I shouldn't say they protect you, your rules automate your insights and the patterns you've noticed based on frustrating client relationships from the past. Turn that into patterns, turn that into rules.

36:57

The rules sort of help you automate your good judgment. Hey, I've just had a bad experience with tight turnarounds with new clients. It's got to be two weeks or I have to politely decline, right? If the client negatively reacts, they show you so much about themselves. Like if they do it now, they're going keep doing it. They're just going to keep doing it.

37:23

If you say no to a client, they show you true colors. If they're looking for a mutually beneficial reciprocal relationship, they're like, hey, I totally respect that. Let's touch base in a couple of weeks or next month, or hey, let's find a way to work together in the future. And they might even say, is there anyone you know of who's willing to take a last minute project? And then you're like, well, try Upwork. Whatever, right? So you'll be all right with Fiverr.

37:58

So it's the rules you put into place that help you automate your own good judgment and then help you just sort of it's sort of like a infrared. It's like gives you this X-ray vision. They're going to act how they're going to act. And they either prove to be understanding and fair minded and reasonable or they proved to be the opposite.

38:27

You know, and it kind of reminds me of this whole idea of whenever you get the dating advice or marriage advice where it's like, know.  You can't fix the you can't fix the guy, you can't fix the girl. It's like just because, oh, maybe if we just get married, you know, the problem will go away and then I can I can change them. And it's like, honey, good luck. You can't change them. They'll change you.

38:52

And so all of my clients are imperfect people. I have been the client. I am imperfect. So  we can only ever do business with frustrating, irritating people. They will be frustrating and  irritating sometimes. The question to ask yourself is knowing what I know, will I sign up for more of this? Because though people can change, I probably will not be the person to change this client. And if I don't want to sign up for more of the same treatment, delays, indecision, disrespect, ignored boundaries, watching that person humiliate other team members. My first job out of grad school, I watched one member of our team  bring another member of our team  two tiers  twice in one week. And I had to make that decision. Am I  going to give my silent endorsement of this behavior or am I going to go to the principal of the agency and speak up?

40:18

And I can't say that I always have, but I did that time. And I told him what had happened and I said, if this is the type of place where that happens, I think I need to resign now. Later on, the perpetrator  came to me and said, how dare you go above my head? You should have come to me first. And it's not always that I like think of the right thing to say in the moment. But I was like, you never listened to a word. say, why would that time I've ever, why would this time have been any different? You don't respect me. You don't listen to me. I didn't go above you. I go to, I went to someone who would listen, who had the power to change the situation. So, yeah, people show you who they are.

41:10

What came of that? Not much.

41:14

Not much.

41:17

So again, and I wasn't at that agency too much longer. I got laid off along with half of the team pretty soon after. But I was not going to change that person's personality. Any person who is willing to humiliate another person to the point of tears in front of people they have to work with every single day. I'm  going to have that heart to heart and change this other person. Now, that other person hadn't given me that kind of authority. So when you're dealing with clients  and you really need the money,  you will try to rationalize staying in the relationship. And I would say have the courage to end the relationship. Extract all of the insight and learning painful though it may be. Like,  why did you ignore your own judgment? How can you ensure that your good judgment does not get ignored next time? How can every client dumpster fire  make the next one less and less likely because you've automated your good judgment through rules and that sort of thing?

42:44

And sadly, if you keep letting... I'll call it behavior. If you keep letting that behavior  go on, if you keep letting clients trick you that way, you're going to end up very jaded  and people aren't going to like you very much. That's what I keep thinking about is eventually you're going to absorb all of that and then you'll turn into the person you hate the most.

43:03

That is so true. Untrusting people  actually come off as untrustworthy. There are certain people I've met who got burned a lot  in forming a relationship with them was like playing a chess match. And after a while I was like, this is exhausting. Like when have I ever not done what I said I was going to do? Because that's the thing is sometimes no matter how much evidence you give people that you're trustworthy, they're still not going to let you in. And I'm like, I'm not signing up  to  contort myself to prove that I'm worthy of a relationship with you. I'm I've got other friends or I've got other opportunities.

44:01

So that I think is the true value of this idea of believing people's actions, even if you've been burned. You've got the scar tissue. A better way to live and a better way to do business is to, as Peter Kaufman says, go positive and go first  and be constant in doing it. Assume positive intent. Assume it first. But then I would also add to that, verify. And then  expand or contract access as needed based on how trustworthy people prove themselves to be.

44:50

You know, and as we land the plane here, you know, I keep thinking in the back of my head is  we all do a very good job at taking what you said and applying that to everybody else in our life. And all of a sudden, it's like, so now we got to look at those people. But I feel like a lot of times we forget to do this the the self-reflection of that. And I'm thinking through it with myself and, you know, I can use the excuse of, I have eight kids, we're running nonstop, we're dealing with this. And thankfully, my friends who have been with me through thick and thin, like my best buddy, Devin, he'll just pop over at the house because, you know, that's the best way to get to hang out with me. Found you. Even first a little bit, because he also knows that I'm dealing with two very moody teenagers and a whole bunch of kids and a lot of trauma that that our kids have dealt with in the past. But, you know, we can use those as excuses for our own bad behavior, or we can step up to the plate and say, I'm going to take ownership of what I can take ownership of. And so as we're listening to this with freelancers, what would be a piece of advice you would give to us to make sure that we don't become the person where other people look at and be like, yeah, that's Marc. He's going to end up accidentally disappearing on you.

46:02

Yeah, I would say be reliable. as basic as it sounds  when you are talking with a friend over coffee  and they say,  Hey, will you send me that podcast episode that you mentioned? And you're like, yeah, of course. Do it. When a client you know, receive some sort of promise or commitment from you. Yeah, I'll have you something to look at by Friday. If say Friday morning, send it Friday morning. If Wednesday, you know there's no way you're gonna send it Friday morning, come clean, admit that, reach out to the client and say, hey, I did not plan appropriately. If it's all the same to you, I would like to send this to you Monday morning. If that doesn't work for you, then I'm committed to even working on Saturday morning to make sure that you get this sooner rather than later. I apologize. I miscalculated.

47:23

So  don't come up with excuses.  Keep your word. Be reliable. At the end of the day, people work with people who are easy to work with. Yes, you can be prickly and difficult. And if you're like super talented, Some people will be willing to work with you. So your work is truly excellent. They'll put up with your personality flaws, right? And even your character flaws. Or if your work is really cheap, they'll put up with your being unreliable because they got a great deal. They just know they have to stay on top of you. There's that extra delta, that delta of project management and personality management. Fine. Getting a killer deal, I'll keep calling you until you finish the job, right?

48:16

But if you wanna charge premium prices, and premium prices are necessary to grow a great freelance business and make it truly sustainable, it's really hard to charge premium prices  for years and be hard to pin down, and miss deadlines and not keep your commitments.

48:46

So if there's one thing that you want to do to win other people's trust, it's be faithful in the small commitments, even verbal commitments you make, follow through, hit deadlines, keep your promises. And then people will come back. You won't burn through relationships. Those relationships, those people, well, they'll refer other people. Because at the end of the day, we want people we can count on. So if you think about what do we even mean by trustworthy, there are trustworthy people you dislike, but you find that  their likeability is actually less important than their reliability.

49:40

You can, you could actually build a good business with clients you don't like as long as they pay on time. Now I wouldn't recommend it, right? But your sort of personality mix or your chemistry, you'll find, yeah, if you're unreliable, you'll still not get the third or fourth project in part because  they're like, yeah, sorry, we had to go a different direction because we never knew quite when you were going to deliver.

50:19

And I think that's the big divide between being just a freelancer and the advanced freelancers that you are developing inside your community is, you know, it's one of those things where a wise business owner, like you said, you might not like all your clients. But they're good clients. And I know we all have some of those too. And so  to land the plane, I want to make sure that I give credit to whom credit is due  and just say, you built a really cool platform with freelance K community where there are other freelancers who are dealing with different struggles, like the ones we've talked about or other different struggles where you're like, oh shoot, maybe I didn't even know I had that struggle, but I'm dealing with that right now. And so you've built a great community and a great place where people are able to be a literal vulnerable, you know, let people in to speak some truth into them  and get some accountability along the way. And so I want to say as a person in your community, thank you for doing that. But I'm also going to the awkward toss the ball back into your court as it is your podcast anyways. But where can people learn more about the freelance cake community and what's involved with being a part of that community?

51:22

So  all the links to the community stuff are below. It is a community for more established and advanced freelancers who typically have a different set of needs and challenges than uh freelancers just getting started. So that's what we focus on. It's a community for freelancers, consultants and agency owners who want to build a very profitable business without working longer hours, want to do excellent work, want to truly serve their clients, want to have a life outside of work  and ultimately want to do work that doesn't always feel like work. And  so there are very specific business development projects. There's very specific structure. There's a very specific approach that I recommend to help people get from  long hours, maybe high earning, but also sort of low joy. There's nothing more frustrating than having  a great financial year, but not actually having the free time to go enjoy any of the money you just made. So we're very focused on time, freedom  and you know quality of life. I don't know if that's the right phrase for it, but how do you build a business that you don't  need a vacation from? That's what we're all about.

52:54

Right there. Tag that. Yeah, you got it, man.

52:57

Go to freelancecake.com/community. We'll put the link in the show notes. Thank you, Marc, for setting that up so nicely. That wasn't rehearsed and I very much appreciate it. And thanks for the conversation. This was a lot of fun.

53:10

Yeah, it was my pleasure. And thanks for having me on, man. And looking forward to maybe the next time I can sneak back into another one, man.

53:16

Come on back anytime. Awesome. I look forward to it. See ya.

53:20

Hey, before you go, let me invite you to join our community for more established, advanced freelancers.  It's called the Freelance Cake Community. One member named Michelle had this to say,  I'm just so impressed by the quality of the conversation that's happening in the group. The in-depth questions, experiments, and thoughts being shared  are just so refreshing. And the other communities I'm a part of, it's all beginner questions, which is fine, but it's awesome to find a more advanced space  where it's okay to ask more advanced questions. Thank you, Michelle.

53:58

Here's a little more about the community. Each week we do live group coaching and live coworking. You get access to a massive resource library and obviously the community itself, which we host using Circle.  Of course, the people are the best part of all this. It really helps to surround yourself with smart, accomplished,  and optimistic people who are out there taking risks and building the businesses they really want. If that interests you, visit  freelancecake.com forward slash community to learn more and apply. You can find that link in the show notes. I hope to see you there.